Stamford1 Posted October 20, 2013 Author Share Posted October 20, 2013 You didn't fail. There was no way that your adult children that have not been in continuous full time employment were going to get on your visa. What your agent did wrong, was to mislead you. Note that Lisamahey's agent did not get the adult child a visa either, but at least has managed expectations better than yours has. it all comes down to what the case officer deems as dependant. For example if we were to sell up in the UK, my kids would have nowhere to live and do not earn enough money to afford to rent anywhere, we more than proved that but because they both earn a wage they are not classed as dependant. Anyway it is what it is, no point in looking back. I just need to find a way forward for us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 it all comes down to what the case officer deems as dependant. For example if we were to sell up in the UK, my kids would have nowhere to live and do not earn enough money to afford to rent anywhere, we more than proved that but because they both earn a wage they are not classed as dependant. Anyway it is what it is, no point in looking back. I just need to find a way forward for us all. But as you have found, this is not the criteria for dependence. Your children not having enough money to pay rent would not make them dependent in immigration terms. If it were as easy as that, you could get unemployed 35 year olds saying they were dependent. Your adult children were working, therefore not dependent. You are right though, it is the way forward that matters. I believe that continuing in the careers they have started would be their best bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lebourvellec Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 it all comes down to what the case officer deems as dependant. For example if we were to sell up in the UK, my kids would have nowhere to live and do not earn enough money to afford to rent anywhere, we more than proved that but because they both earn a wage they are not classed as dependant. Anyway it is what it is, no point in looking back. I just need to find a way forward for us all. I have seen on the forum that a child age 20 that was in fulltime education not deamed a dependent for visa application because they had student loans to pay for student halls and small part-time job. One thing to remember is that a 457 visa is sponsored by an employer who is liable for dependants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katie Birdie Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 I was told by an agent to include my 24 year old on my visa application as a dependant (I had to re-do my application before submitting as I had not included her) she still stays at home but did have a part time job - she was granted visa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stamford1 Posted October 20, 2013 Author Share Posted October 20, 2013 I was told by an agent to include my 24 year old on my visa application as a dependant (I had to re-do my application before submitting as I had not included her) she still stays at home but did have a part time job - she was granted visa I guess a lot depends on the Case Officer who looks at the application and what side of bed they get out of. There does not seem to be any consistency. Rupert, thanks very much for your input, very much appreciated. To all others who have taken the time to post, thank you. I will update you on what we decide to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 I was told by an agent to include my 24 year old on my visa application as a dependant (I had to re-do my application before submitting as I had not included her) she still stays at home but did have a part time job - she was granted visa I have seen the odd case like this too. But you were very, very fortunate, in the majority of cases it does not and will not go this way. OPs situation is more typical. Te best advice for most, if they can plan in advance, is to keep the adult child in education, then there is a lot more certainty over the outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrussell Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 unemployed 35 year olds saying they were dependent Not unheard of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Presumably the adult dependents have more going on than simply not having a job. If they require some form of care, they could be classed as a dependent. But for someone over 18, even if they do live with parents, would not be a dependent because they are eligible for benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khym03 Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Ok the good news is, I have my 457 approved for me,the wife and youngest child. The bad news is my two eldest children are over 18 and despite me proving them dependant, they were not seen as dependant, in the immigration officers eyes. We have been advised to get them both 417 (WHV) to get them out there with us, with a view to adding them to my 457 down stream. Has anyone else been in a similar situation as we are now? Advice on if this is the right route to enable them to stay with us or other options once we arrive, will be much appreciated. Thanks in advance Did you provide any proof to show that your children that are over 18 is still dependent on you? I arrived here in OZ as a dependent on my dad's 457 visa and I'm 23 at that time. When we started to process our visa, I stopped on my fulltime job to be considered as dependent. My eldest brother which is 24 at that time, go back to full time study. What we provide is a certification from an authorised attorney stating that were still living with my mum, they are the one who provide foods and every day allowances. My brother provide his enrolment form from school and me provide a certification stating that I am still looking for a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 I arrived here in OZ as a dependent on my dad's 457 visa and I'm 23 at that time. When we started to process our visa, I stopped on my fulltime job to be considered as dependent. Is it possible that you came from a country that didn't have a social securtiy system, teherefore if you were unemployed you would have been dependent on your family? My understanding is that if you are eligible to state benefits that are designed to cover the cost of living and accommodation, you cannot claim to be dependent on parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khym03 Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Is it possible that you came from a country that didn't have a social securtiy system, teherefore if you were unemployed you would have been dependent on your family? My understanding is that if you are eligible to state benefits that are designed to cover the cost of living and accommodation, you cannot claim to be dependent on parents. We came from Philippines, we didn't accept any benefits from our government. So therefore, were considered as dependent on my parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 We came from Philippines, we didn't accept any benefits from our government. So therefore, were considered as dependent on my parents. That's the difference between your case and the OP. You came from a country where it was possibe for adults to be dependent upon their family. In the UK, there are social security benefits available to everyone over the age of 18 if they have no income. The only adults who can be dependent are: student aged under a certain age in full time education, as they are not eligible for benefits; and the married partner of someone in employment, as they are also not be eligible for unemployment benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stamford1 Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 What really gets me annoyed is the proving of dependency. A 17 year old who lives near us is on 3 times the wage of my sons apprenticeship wage and yet he would be classed as dependant. That's the difference between your case and the OP. You came from a country where it was possibe for adults to be dependent upon their family. In the UK, there are social security benefits available to everyone over the age of 18 if they have no income. The only adults who can be dependent are: student aged under a certain age in full time education, as they are not eligible for benefits; and the married partner of someone in employment, as they are also not be eligible for unemployment benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 What really gets me annoyed is the proving of dependency. A 17 year old who lives near us is on 3 times the wage of my sons apprenticeship wage and yet he would be classed as dependant. That is because the 17 year old is classed as a child and even though he may have a good income, he is not deemed to be mature enough that he could be expected to live independently - i.e. run a household, have financial responsibility, sign contracts, etc. Once you reach that magic age of 18 defined in legislation, you are deemed to be mature enough to live on your own and then - and only then - is access to money the key consideration in dependence/independence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy1 Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 I can understand everyone wanting to bring their family with them, but really the line has to be drawn somewhere - it is also a temporary visa. An adult who is earning a wage is not a dependent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stamford1 Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 I can understand everyone wanting to bring their family with them, but really the line has to be drawn somewhere - it is also a temporary visa. An adult who is earning a wage is not a dependent. An adult earning £125 per week, cannot possibly afford to rent anywhere let alone eat but as you say, if an adult is working they don't get classed as dependant, however if they are in full time education and work on a bar 3 nights a week, earning the same amount, they are dependant. It's crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 An adult earning £125 per week, cannot possibly afford to rent anywhere let alone eat but as you say, if an adult is working they don't get classed as dependant, however if they are in full time education and work on a bar 3 nights a week, earning the same amount, they are dependant. It's crazy. So an adult earning GBP125 a week is working about 20 hours a week. One argument is that they could work full time, visas are not granted to adult children just because they don't want to work full time. It is not crazy, children need to grow up sometime. Do you think unemployed 50 year olds should be allowed on their parents visa as dependents? And if not where would you draw the line? Your children are adults and they are working. They are not legally your dependents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 An adult earning £125 per week, cannot possibly afford to rent anywhere let alone eat but as you say, if an adult is working they don't get classed as dependant, however if they are in full time education and work on a bar 3 nights a week, earning the same amount, they are dependant. It's crazy. The combination of housing benefit and income support/JSA is supposed to cover living costs including rent. If someone has a very low income, it will reduce the amount of HB and IS/JSA but some level of benefit may still be available. It's not a great quality of life on the dole or on very low income, but it is independence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stamford1 Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 So an adult earning GBP125 a week is working about 20 hours a week. One argument is that they could work full time, visas are not granted to adult children just because they don't want to work full time. It is not crazy, children need to grow up sometime. Do you think unemployed 50 year olds should be allowed on their parents visa as dependents? And if not where would you draw the line? Your children are adults and they are working. They are not legally your dependents. Rupert its actually 4 hours per night x 3 = 12 hours per week for that money. It's part time not full time. The point I am making is, if an adult child is working those hours and in full time education, they are classed as dependant in the immigrations eyes. Yes at the age of 18 in the UK they are classed as adults, other countries such as the USA they are not, as they cannot drink alcohol until 21. With regard to older people, again it's a matter of interpretation. A parent can be classed as dependant in certain circumstances. They may well have worked all their life and have enough money to support themselves but can still be classed as dependant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Que Sera Sera Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Look at it through Australian immigration eyes. Do you want a 22 year old working full time in Tescos with no official skills or a lad still at Uni getting skills but working part time at Sainsburys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stamford1 Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 Look at it through Australian immigration eyes. Do you want a 22 year old working full time in Tescos with no official skills or a lad still at Uni getting skills but working part time at Sainsburys? Absolutely spot on. However there is no consistency my son is on an apprenticeship, which I argued is education to get his qualification, he is earning less than a student bar maid but does not qualify as a dependant. Obviously it's close to my heart as he is my child and it was me who withdrew him from the application, before they declined him. It's now history but hopefully others can learn from my experience. We will all go to Oz. The worst that can happen after 12 months, if they can't stay, we all come home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Absolutely spot on. However there is no consistency my son is on an apprenticeship, which I argued is education to get his qualification, he is earning less than a student bar maid but does not qualify as a dependant. As an apprentice, he is deemed to be in employment; he earns a wage and has access to low income benefits if they are needed. Had he been a university student, he would not have access to the low income benefits since they were taken away from full time students by the Thatcher government. During long vacations, students are not covered by student loans, do not have access to benefits, and are therefore seen as dependent. The test for dependence/independence is not based on how much you earn or claim, it is based on what you could claim. We will all go to Oz. The worst that can happen after 12 months, if they can't stay, we all come home. This is a likely scenario. It would be hard for one of the children to get a visa in his/her own right withion 12 months, but most unlikely for both of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stamford1 Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 As an apprentice, he is deemed to be in employment; he earns a wage and has access to low income benefits if they are needed. Had he been a university student, he would not have access to the low income benefits since they were taken away from full time students by the Thatcher government. During long vacations, students are not covered by student loans, do not have access to benefits, and are therefore seen as dependent. The test for dependence/independence is not based on how much you earn or claim, it is based on what you could claim. This is a likely scenario. It would be hard for one of the children to get a visa in his/her own right withion 12 months, but most unlikely for both of them. I won't go into detail about benefits, it's a sore point. He is not entitled due to him living at home and my income. But of course he is not dependant, he is an adult earning a wage! you maybe right re not getting a visa but of course you may also be wrong. Where there is a will there is a way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinkla Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 I won't go into detail about benefits, it's a sore point. He is not entitled due to him living at home and my income. But of course he is not dependant, he is an adult earning a wage! There is a circularity in your argument. He is not eligible for housing benefit that would enable him to live independently because he lives with you, and he lives with you because he can't afford to live independently. Basically, if he lived in private rented accommodation, he would be eligible for housing benefit. you maybe right re not getting a visa but of course you may also be wrong. Where there is a will there is a way. I am a born pessimist, but I hope they do get visas. However, I suspect you don't actually believe you would come back after a year and expect that some magic will happen that will enable you all to stay on in Australia. Magic doesn't happen and you need to be realistic about this. It is likely that one or both of your grown up kids would not get a visa and would have to leave at the end of a WHV. Would you all really come back then? What about if one of the kids gets a visa and the other doesn't - would both return or would your family split for ever? What would happen if one of the kids found a partner in Australia? What would happen if your own temporary 457 came to an end once your kids were established in Australia? By all means take risks, be adventurous, etc. But you need to have a realistic think about these issues before you go rather than find you don't have answers after you have gone. And you need to be honest with your kids about the propects rather than just tell them that "she'll be right". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stamford1 Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 There is a circularity in your argument. He is not eligible for housing benefit that would enable him to live independently because he lives with you, and he lives with you because he can't afford to live independently. Basically, if he lived in private rented accommodation, he would be eligible for housing benefit. I am a born pessimist, but I hope they do get visas. However, I suspect you don't actually believe you would come back after a year and expect that some magic will happen that will enable you all to stay on in Australia. Magic doesn't happen and you need to be realistic about this. It is likely that one or both of your grown up kids would not get a visa and would have to leave at the end of a WHV. Would you all really come back then? What about if one of the kids gets a visa and the other doesn't - would both return or would your family split for ever? What would happen if one of the kids found a partner in Australia? What would happen if your own temporary 457 came to an end once your kids were established in Australia? By all means take risks, be adventurous, etc. But you need to have a realistic think about these issues before you go rather than find you don't have answers after you have gone. And you need to be honest with your kids about the propects rather than just tell them that "she'll be right". I am not getting into an argument with you. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and you are entitled to yours, which I totally respect. I don't know you and you certainly don't know me. I have always been honest with my kids, they know exactly what the position is. We are an extremely close family and a life in Oz will not split us up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.