Cancel PR to be allowed to leave?

[goliveira]

Hi,

With the outbound travel ban in place, I believe many PR holders will decide to move back to their countries of origin to make sure they can see aging parents, friends, and other relatives whenever they want.

I understand that any PR holder would need to get an outbound travel exemption to leave Australia, and I am wondering if anyone here had the experience of making the decision to move back and secured a travel exemption to do so. If so, what did they state in their applications for the exemptions?

I can also imagine that some might have applied, and, even after stating that they have no intention of returning, been denied an exemption to leave. If that happened to anyone here, I'd like to know if he or she has considered the option of requesting the cancellation of his or her PR so that he or she is no longer a permanent resident, and, therefore, not subject to the outbound travel ban. If so, what was the cancellation experience like, and has he or she effectively moved back?

I can also imagine that the scenario above might have eventuated for someone who already became a dual citizen, and, if anyone has gotten to the point of renouncing their Australian citizenship as their only option to leave Australia at the moment.

Thank you all.

[Marisawright]

48 minutes ago, goliveira said:

I can also imagine that some might have applied, and, even after stating that they have no intention of returning, been denied an exemption to leave. If that happened to anyone here, I'd like to know if he or she has considered the option of requesting the cancellation of his or her PR so that he or she is no longer a permanent resident, and, therefore, not subject to the outbound travel ban. 

It's not an option, there is no way to cancel your PR.

We have had several members who have moved home successfully, or are in the process of doing so.  I know of two who were refused on their first attempt, but one applied under the wrong category and I think the other hadnt submitted enough evidence.  There is no limit to the number of times you can apply for an exemption.  

Apply under "you are travelling for urgent or unavoidable personal business".   Complete a statutory declaration on the official Commonwealth form, and attach as much proof as you can.  Things like notice to your landlord or proof you've put your house on the market, booking for your shipping, booking for accommodation when you arrive (choose something that doesn't have a cancellatin fee!) etc.  You can't apply more than 2 months before you propose to fly (but don't book the flights).   

Naturally, Immigration can't just take your word for it that you're leaving for good. If they did, people would lie just to get out of the country. That may not sound like it matters, but then those people would all want to return - and if they're PR or citizens, Immigration can't stop them doing so, adding to the pressure on quarantine places.

 

Edited June 23, 2021 by Marisawright

[goliveira]

Thank you @Marisawright.

However, in relation to the comment:

Quote

It's not an option, there is no way to cancel your PR.

This website seems to convey that voluntary PR cancellations would be possible through ImmiAccount: https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/cancelling-a-visa

Under "Request a visa cancellation", it says:

Quote

Other visas can be cancelled in ImmiAccount.

Moreover, are you acquainted with lawyers that might have assisted people struggling to obtain exemptions?

[rtritudr]

I think it's a bit drastic to request a cancellation over this.  Since you don't plan on returning, you could simply apply for an exemption, and in the unlikely case that you are denied just fly via New Zealand (you may have to wait for the current outbreak to come under control first if you happen to be in NSW).

[Marisawright]

3 hours ago, goliveira said:

in relation to the comment:

This website seems to convey that voluntary PR cancellations would be possible through ImmiAccount:...

Moreover, are you acquainted with lawyers that might have assisted people struggling to obtain exemptions?

Well, I've learned something new - though I see cancellation is "at the discretion of the department" only.  

Some of the migration agents who post here (Suncoast Migration for instance) have helped people prepare their exemption application.

If you'd like to leave, it seems unnecessarily pessimistic to consider drastic action until you've been refused a couple of times - which may not even happen.  

There are certainly horror stories on Facebook, but the vast majority of them are people who want to leave temporarily, which is extremely hard to do.  We haven't had anyone on this forum have trouble with leaving permanently, so why imagine the worst?

Edited June 23, 2021 by Marisawright

[Tulip1]

7 hours ago, goliveira said:

Hi,

With the outbound travel ban in place, I believe many PR holders will decide to move back to their countries of origin to make sure they can see aging parents, friends, and other relatives whenever they want.

I understand that any PR holder would need to get an outbound travel exemption to leave Australia, and I am wondering if anyone here had the experience of making the decision to move back and secured a travel exemption to do so. If so, what did they state in their applications for the exemptions?

I can also imagine that some might have applied, and, even after stating that they have no intention of returning, been denied an exemption to leave. If that happened to anyone here, I'd like to know if he or she has considered the option of requesting the cancellation of his or her PR so that he or she is no longer a permanent resident, and, therefore, not subject to the outbound travel ban. If so, what was the cancellation experience like, and has he or she effectively moved back?

I can also imagine that the scenario above might have eventuated for someone who already became a dual citizen, and, if anyone has gotten to the point of renouncing their Australian citizenship as their only option to leave Australia at the moment.

Thank you all.

I don’t believe many PR holders will return to their country of origin because of the current situation.  They may say they are thinking about it because they’ve got the hump over the current situation but few actually will. They all knew that by choosing to live on the other side of the world to families seeing them would always be infrequent and as relatives age, flying often becomes impossible.  Sure it’s extra hard right now as people cannot see their loved ones but that will pass.  I think very few will give up a life they love to start up again back in their old place.  Having got this far they will hang on and make the most of the digital world we live in for contact.  In answer to your question re exemptions.  I think very few will be denied if they show very good evidence they are giving up their life there and moving to another country.  So many things would have to have been done/organised in preparation for such a life changing event it’s unlikely they’ll be a lack of evidence if it’s a genuine permanent move.  The one off single guy with just a backpack may struggle to convince but they will be rare.  The only people that would give up their PR for this is those that hate their lives in Australia and have no intention of ever wanting to return.  Most have gone to great lengths to get that visa, including the sacrifice of knowing they will not be seeing parents etc on a regular basis.  They will not give it up easily. Australia won’t care if they do, everyone’s easily replaceable. 

[Nemesis]

I recently had a conversation with a registered migration agent on the topic of cancelling PR visas, as several facebook group members are starting to talk about it. They no longer wish to live here, families are back home and the glitter is wearing off over here.

Information received was - 

On cancelling PR, the short answer is yes it can be done but it’s a question of how you do it.  Cancelling as such seems to be tricky (waiting on comment from a colleague about this - that comment is included below).  But cessation is easy.  For UK citizens it’s possible to do this by applying for a subclass 651 visa and allowing that to overwrite the existing visa but for US citizens the equivalent, an ETA visa, expressly prohibits the application of s.82 of the Act (see relevant provision below).

 Section 82    When visas cease to be in effect 

(1)  A visa that is cancelled ceases to be in effect on cancellation.(2)  A substantive visa held by a non-citizen ceases to be in effect if another substantive visa (other than a special purpose visa) for the non-citizen comes into effect.

Unfortunately the “cancellation” powers in s.109 and 116 are very much punitive but cessation of a permanent visa has the same effect,

---------------------------------------------------------------

The comment referred to above is this, from a member of the Migration Institute of Australia that -

"As far as I can see permanent visas may only be cancelled under MA 116(1) if the holder is both:

in the migration zone and immigration cleared on last entering Australia. This means that a permanent visa can be cancelled in the migration zone under MA 116(1AA) (identity) or 116(1AB) (incorrect info)."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cancelling citizenship is much simpler!

Its niot recommended that people try and cancel PR without at least consulting an agent, it seems to be far from straightforward.

[Marisawright]

26 minutes ago, Nemesis said:

I recently had a conversation with a registered migration agent on the topic of cancelling PR visas, as several facebook group members are starting to talk about it. They no longer wish to live here, families are back home and the glitter is wearing off over here.

I still think that cancelling PR is an extreme reaction.  How often have we seen posters say they can't wait to see the back of Australia--only to remember, when they get home, that there was a reason they left.  People like that will be regretting cancelling PR for the rest of their lives.

Of course, there are people who've been back and forth already and are very certain - it makes sense for them.  But we've seen too many on these forums who thought they were certain and weren't after all.  It would be a great pity if they burned their bridges before making sure they'd tried all other alternatives.

Edited June 23, 2021 by Marisawright

[Nemesis]

1 hour ago, Marisawright said:

I still think that cancelling PR is an extreme reaction.  How often have we seen posters say they can't wait to see the back of Australia--only to remember, when they get home, that there was a reason they left.  People like that will be regretting cancelling PR for the rest of their lives.

Of course, there are people who've been back and forth already and are very certain - it makes sense for them.  But we've seen too many on these forums who thought they were certain and weren't after all.  It would be a great pity if they burned their bridges before making sure they'd tried all other alternatives.

Oh I agree, it is an extreme reaction. However after a few hours of reading I am beginning to see why some people would do it, if it is their only way out. Everyone's circumstances are unique, after all, and people have their reasons for making extreme decisions. I know we all accepted when moving here that we would be distant from family for evermore, but how many of us (certainly in recent times) actually expected to spend years in end with no contact?

However, at the end of the day it is very difficult to cancel PR, and as I said before, it really needs guidance from an agent.

[Jon the Hat]

It takes so much time and effort to get it, madness to throw it away when evidence suggests if you make plans to leave for more than 3 months you can get an exemption.  If people are not getting that permission I have to wonder whether they are applying properly, or have taken any steps to actually move.  As the question was written like a journalistic enquiry I rather wonder if it isn't just that.

[wrussell]

Do not take migration advice from idiotbook.

[Nemesis]

1 hour ago, wrussell said:

Do not take migration advice from idiotbook.

My information is not from idiot book, it is from an email conversation with a respected registered migration agent. it was obtained in order to try and assist people who are posting their border predicament on facebook. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Nemesis

[rtritudr]

7 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

It takes so much time and effort to get it, madness to throw it away when evidence suggests if you make plans to leave for more than 3 months you can get an exemption.  If people are not getting that permission I have to wonder whether they are applying properly, or have taken any steps to actually move.  As the question was written like a journalistic enquiry I rather wonder if it isn't just that.

It's no longer sufficient to use over 3 months as an excuse for an exemption, currently you must also supply a compelling reason to travel abroad.

[Wanderer Returns]

22 hours ago, Marisawright said:

I still think that cancelling PR is an extreme reaction.  How often have we seen posters say they can't wait to see the back of Australia--only to remember, when they get home, that there was a reason they left.  People like that will be regretting cancelling PR for the rest of their lives.

 

14 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

It takes so much time and effort to get it, madness to throw it away when evidence suggests if you make plans to leave for more than 3 months you can get an exemption.  If people are not getting that permission I have to wonder whether they are applying properly, or have taken any steps to actually move.  As the question was written like a journalistic enquiry I rather wonder if it isn't just that.

I totally agree with the aforementioned. You'd have to stark-raving-bonkers to cancel your PR (or renounce your citizenship) over this matter when the future is so uncertain.

So you want to leave Australia and don't qualify for a travel exemption? Just buy a return ticket to New Zealand as though you were going there on holiday. Once in NZ, you can fly back to the UK without restriction. I don't know why this topic merits such a lengthy debate.

I'm not endorsing this course of action, but clearly it's a loophole the Australian government has no control over.

https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/new-zealand-safe-travel-zone#toc-4

[Jon the Hat]

7 hours ago, rtritudr said:

It's no longer sufficient to use over 3 months as an excuse for an exemption, currently you must also supply a compelling reason to travel abroad.

Compelling being you are moving back to UK, so show them you have given notice on your rental or are selling your house, that you gave notice on your job, that you have flights booked and an AirBnb in the UK.  That you applied for jobs in the UK.

[Marisawright]

57 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Compelling being you are moving back to UK, so show them you have given notice on your rental or are selling your house, that you gave notice on your job, that you have flights booked and an AirBnb in the UK.  That you applied for jobs in the UK.

Exactly.  We keep hearing about all these people who are being refused permission to leave permanently--yet when I look for actual examples, the only examples I've been offered are people who want to leave for a visit.

I know some of those examples are heart-breaking but they are a totally different thing and completely irrelevant.  Unfortunately the result is that we get people like the OP panicking because they think they're going to get refused an exemption to leave permanently, when there's little concrete evidence that's the case

Edited June 24, 2021 by Marisawright

[Tulip1]

9 hours ago, rtritudr said:

It's no longer sufficient to use over 3 months as an excuse for an exemption, currently you must also supply a compelling reason to travel abroad.

Of course you do as many of those over 3 months travellers will suddenly appear back within a few weeks because ‘they’ve changed their mind’ or they were lying as it’s more often known as.  Why is it a problem to show compelling reasons and evidence to back it up.  Those genuinely returning to live permanently should have no problem providing evidence to show that.  Only those who are trying to take a holiday to visit family and are telling porkies will have a problem providing evidence because of course there won’t be any.  Genuine leavers can leave, pretend leavers can’t. 

[Marisawright]

11 minutes ago, Tulip1 said:

Why is it a problem to show compelling reasons and evidence to back it up.  Those genuinely returning to live permanently should have no problem providing evidence to show that.  

To be fair, I think one problem is that due to the hysterical rumours about hundreds being rejected, some people are saying, "I'm not going to put my house on the market, book my shipping, or hand in my notice, because I might not get the exemption and then I'll be stuck".   Which, of course, means they apply without sufficient evidence, and then they get rejected which seems to confirm their fears, so then they're stuck in a loop of their own making.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Marisawright

[Nemesis]

A few stats, which people may choose to call "hysterical rumours of hundreds being rejected."

The migrants leaving for good so they can see their families

Since March last year, 156,507 Australian citizens and permanent residents were given exemptions to leave Australia out of 329,180 who made requests, according to the Australian Border Force.

A total of 84,031 requests from Australian citizens and permanent residents to leave Australia were denied.

 

===============================================================

Parliamentary Question on Notice

https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=47008076-276e-4e30-89ff-d481f6fa611e

Of the 103 travel exemption requests received from Prospective Marriage (Subclass
300) visa holders between 1 and 20 August 2020:
a) 9 requests were approved
b) 89 requests were refused
c) 5 requests were otherwise finalised (withdrawn or duplicate cases).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From 1- 31 August 2020, 22,071 inwards travel exemption requests were received
for travel exemptions to Australia.
CATEGORIES       APPROVED    REFUSED
Compassionate       823                  4,155
Critical Skill - Medical 315           18
Critical Skill - Other 2,311             194
National interest 119                  <5
Medevac Patients 51                   6
Total                      3,619                 4,374

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From 1–31 August 2020, 22,071 inwards exemption requests have been received.
Of these during this period:
a) 3,269* were approved
b) 4,844* were refused

-----------------------------------------------------------

Between 1 and 31 August 2020, 264 travel exemption requests have been received
from Bridging Visa B holders. Of these during this period:
a. 15 were approved
b. 61 were refused
--------------------------------------------

Note that when asked for data, generally the reply is "is not possible to provide this data without undertaking examination of individual requests which would involve an unreasonable diversion of resources." For this reason it is very hard to find figures. But then its only people's lives they are dealing with, why should they be accountable. 

 

[Parley]

I suppose objectively it would be concerning if lots of requests were being approved. The whole point of closed borders is to stop travel.

Only truly compelling cases are being approved I expect and hope.

Just missing your loved ones is not really a compelling compassionate case. If a parent or chlld is dying or gravely ill, then that should definitely be approved, but simply missing a loved one who you voluntarily separated yourself from is not going to qualify under the current emergency situation.

The good news is by end of next year the borders will be open again.

[Marisawright]

36 minutes ago, Nemesis said:

A few stats, which people may choose to call "hysterical rumours of hundreds being rejected."

I don't deny hundreds of travel exemptions are being rejected.  But I was referring to rumours about people leaving permanently. 

I am seeing lots of evidence of people being refused leave for a visit, both in the media and here on PIO.  I have yet to see an actual example of someone who submitted all the requirements and was unable to get an exemption to leave permanently.  If you consider those reports/complaints the tip of the iceberg in each case, that strongly suggests to me that the number of permanent departures rejected are tiny compared to the number of temporary ones.  

 But if you listen to the rumours flying around, you'd think refusal of pemanent departures was as common as the temporary ones, and that causes unnecessary anxiety.  

Your statistics make no distinction between those wishing to leave permanently and those wishing to move temporarily, so they add nothing to the discussion.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Marisawright

[rammygirl]

11 hours ago, Nemesis said:

A few stats, which people may choose to call "hysterical rumours of hundreds being rejected."

The migrants leaving for good so they can see their families

Since March last year, 156,507 Australian citizens and permanent residents were given exemptions to leave Australia out of 329,180 who made requests, according to the Australian Border Force.

A total of 84,031 requests from Australian citizens and permanent residents to leave Australia were denied.

 

===============================================================

Parliamentary Question on Notice

https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=47008076-276e-4e30-89ff-d481f6fa611e

Of the 103 travel exemption requests received from Prospective Marriage (Subclass
300) visa holders between 1 and 20 August 2020:
a) 9 requests were approved
b) 89 requests were refused
c) 5 requests were otherwise finalised (withdrawn or duplicate cases).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From 1- 31 August 2020, 22,071 inwards travel exemption requests were received
for travel exemptions to Australia.
CATEGORIES       APPROVED    REFUSED
Compassionate       823                  4,155
Critical Skill - Medical 315           18
Critical Skill - Other 2,311             194
National interest 119                  <5
Medevac Patients 51                   6
Total                      3,619                 4,374

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From 1–31 August 2020, 22,071 inwards exemption requests have been received.
Of these during this period:
a) 3,269* were approved
b) 4,844* were refused

-----------------------------------------------------------

Between 1 and 31 August 2020, 264 travel exemption requests have been received
from Bridging Visa B holders. Of these during this period:
a. 15 were approved
b. 61 were refused
--------------------------------------------

Note that when asked for data, generally the reply is "is not possible to provide this data without undertaking examination of individual requests which would involve an unreasonable diversion of resources." For this reason it is very hard to find figures. But then its only people's lives they are dealing with, why should they be accountable. 

 

These appear to be stats for people applying to enter not leave Australia